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Now, you've announced this morning that you have a new policy which is essentially a tax break for workers doing overtime.

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How are you going to make this work? It's going to be a bit complicated, isn't it?

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I mean, what is overtime and who gets it and so on? Some people don't do overtime.

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It's actually very simple, Trevor. Reform is for workers and we want to reward the hardest working people.

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People who are going out every day, doing a 40-hour week and then choosing to go above and beyond in order to pay the bills or to save up for a deposit

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or just to take the kids out for a meal at the end of the week or to go on a holiday or buy Christmas presents at the end of the year.

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And these people are finding life very, very tough at the moment.

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So under a reform government, if you go to your boss, you take on extra hours, you do that overtime, you won't pay any income tax at all.

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Zero. It's a hard work bonus. It's going to increase the earnings of millions of households across the country.

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It will be a big change, but it's one that I think will be welcome by so many people who are working very hard at the moment.

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It sounds absolutely lovely, but if I were an employer, first thing I'd say is, yay, that means what I can do now is pay the first 40 hours at minimum wage

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and then I can pay the overtime at some exorbitant rate and everybody wins except the taxman.

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Well, I don't expect that's the way it's going to work and there'll obviously be anti-avoidance.

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Well, why wouldn't it be? It benefits everybody except the public finances.

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Well, we don't think that's what's going to happen. There will be anti-avoidance measures in place.

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But our priority is making sure that working people get the incentive to take on those extra hours.

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You're going to have to work a 40-hour week and that will obviously be paid at the normal rate.

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But if you do choose to take on the extra hours, then you're going to get rewarded for it.

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And that's the right thing to do. Let me give you some examples.

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If you worked in the Heinz factory in Wigan and you chose to stay after work for another hour or hour and a half,

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you know, do seven hours extra a week, you're going to take home a thousand pounds extra a year.

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If you're a newly qualified nurse and you did an extra hour every day, five hours a week,

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you're going to take home almost £1,300 at the end of the year.

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This is real money for the hardest working people out there.

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Yes, it does cost money. You know, it's going to cost about £5 billion.

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We're going to find that through savings in welfare.

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We've already announced £40 billion in savings.

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No more welfare for migrants, no more welfare for people who are choosing not to be in work.

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But I think this sends the very strongest signal that reform is for working people

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and we're going to back people who are choosing to do the extra hours.

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I don't suppose it's completely an accident that you mentioned Wigan as an example.

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But let's not go into that because we have a by-election.

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We have by-election rules.

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But I still don't quite see how you are going to prevent employers from gaming the system

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and reducing the tax burden on both them and their employees without massive intrusions into every company,

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every hairdresser, every garage in the country.

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Well, we've allocated £5 billion to this and that includes an apportionment for some reclassification

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of unpaid overtime to paid overtime.

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So we expect there will be some changes within the labour market.

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But if there is gaming of this, if there's abuse, then obviously we'll clamp down on that

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and we'll work with HMRC and the Treasury when we enter government to make sure that we get that right.

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But the rules are very simple.

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You have to have worked your normal contracted 40 hours and then you're choosing to take on some extra hours.

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And, you know, for those extra hours, you're going to get this big tax cut.

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I talked to Darren Jones, the Chief Secretary to the Prime Minister's Office about your proposal this morning.

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And he says, number one, people are going to cheat.

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Number two, it's going to cost you £5 billion and that tells you what reform is going to do.

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You're going to take it out of the National Health Service because you're going to introduce a social...

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..an insurance system and basically destroy the NHS.

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Well, it does tell you what reform is going to do, yeah, and who we reform in business for.

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It's for working people. We're for the 90% of people who are going to benefit from this.

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No, but you're going to get the £5 billion and it won't be going to the NHS that needs it, is his point.

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It's going to working people.

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We are not for benefit streets.

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And that is, you're not saying we're not going to cut the NHS.

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We're not going to cut the NHS, but I'm not accepting the premise of the nonsense that Darren Jones has been spouting on your show.

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We're for working people. We're unashamedly giving a tax cut to the hardest working people out there.

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What's Labour going to do?

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They're going to increase taxes, as they have done throughout their time in government, and waste it on benefits.

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We're not for the benefit street.

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Neither are we for the luxury beliefs brigade that Labour and the Tory party are fighting over at the top end either.

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We're for the 90% of people who are in the middle, are working hard, exactly the sort of people who take on overtime

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because they want to do the right thing for themselves and their family.

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Those people should know that if there's a reform government, they're our first priority and we're going to do everything we can to cut tax for them.